Pawing at the mouth

My guy has been pawing at the mouth for quite some time now. We have tried anti-biotics, ear drops, checked his teeth and I have even changed his diet. Nothing has been working. I have yet another vet appointment on Monday for him where I am going to be discussing his BG and hopefully get his started on pred if that is the issue.

What makes me think it might not be his bg is because it happens ALOT after he drinks water or around the time he goes for his water. He will scratch at his food dish and his water bowl (I also have a water container that he can lick too)

I am thinking it might be something with his stomach, or his teeth even though the vet said his teeth look fine. I am going to get her to check out his teeth again.

There is no way that something IS NOT going on with him. He is not the ferret he used to be. I know he is older but it's not normal to be pawing at the mouth as much as he does. Sometimes he can go a week without doing it, and other times it is everyday.

I just want to help him.

The reason for posting this is because I took a video of what he does, when he paws at his mouth and maybe someone has recognized it before and maybe have another assumption. 

http://youtu.be/uSp_qiFfsZw 


Thanks in advance.

This is a sign of abdominal discomfort or [font="arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal"]nausea.  Could be number of things; such as insuliloma, uclers


http://ferrethealth.org/archive/2001/YG2584


 http://ferrethealth.org/archive/2002/YG10172

Check out some post in the ferrethealth site  

http://ferrethealth.org/archive/search






I would get his BG tested.


If the mean time, I think I would put him on a bland diet.  (duck/chicken soup, baby food)
At least you are getting some food into him.


Good luck and keep us posed on the little one.

Are you putting any additives in the water, like Bi-Odor?  Are his poops normal?  What is he eating?  Does he seem to be eating a normal amount?  It seems odd that this occurs in connection with drinking water, but things like insulinoma can present with different signs, pawing at the mouth being one.  Doesn't look like a typical seizure, but definitely get his glucose checked.    At least then you may be able to eliminate insulinoma.  Has he shown any other signs?  He sure doesn't look lethargic...   Have the vet check his thoat too.  

From  http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=669    This covers excessive salivating and pawing at the mouth.

 The most common cause of this condition is hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) caused by insulinoma (pancreatic beta cell cancer). We do not know why the ferret drools in response to this condition, although some people speculate it could be a response to nausea. Other conditions that can cause salivating include ulcers, foreign bodies and infections of the stomach and some toxins. 

THE DOOKS OF HAZARD

I am printing off everything you guys are showing me. I am quite tired of bringing my ferret in for the exact same reason and not having any answers. It's been MONTHS, 400+ hundred dollars and they have done multiple tests under "assumptions" of what it may be, each time it was a different diagnosis. I know ferrets can be difficult sometimes, but it is quite annoying. I feel bad for my little guy.


As for the honey thing, I have been doing that and noticing he stops not long after and falls asleep. But I don't do it every time and it only lasts sometimes 5 minutes or sometimes longer so it confuses me as to what it may be. I am leaning toward the low blood sugar though and it is going to be the thing I mention to the vet.

The last blood test came up as a lab error for his blood sugar reading. Hoping tonight is different.

Thanks for all the information! This forum keeps me sane when trying to deal with whatever his issues may be 

Was today vet day?  How did it go?  

THE DOOKS OF HAZARD

Costed me quite a bit today 
Had xray done (and will be getting a specialist consultation within the next few days)
BG done

She sees a spot on his abdomin and his lymph nodes are swollen..

Turns out, his blood glucose is 1.2... which was the same as last time when they it was a "lab error" his bg was actually 1.2 as well...

Started predisone right away....

I also received a call from the vet for the consultation of the xrays that were taken.

They said it looks like lymphoma
The next steps would be a biopsy to test for malignancy. And even further if it came out to be malignant it would mean chemo.

OR

What I can do is keep him on the Predisone, and keep monitoring him that way.

So far since he was on Pred since Monday, I have not seen him smacking his lips, or clawing at his mouth at all. Last night he even stayed up longer than his usual 15 minutes to explore. Normally he is up and down while out of the cage. Exploring for 15 minutes and sleeping for an hour and back up for 15. This time he was getting into things more than usual :)

I still have yet to see him dancing around or dooking, anyone have experience in this? Do I have a chance to see my guy become the hyperball he used to be?

I hope it's not lymphoma.  I've only dealt with one case and just had Larry on pred until the cancer won the battle.  He was well involved when I got him, I believe, and lived another 13 months but the last couple weren't pretty, because he got adrenal too.  At that time I couldn't even consider chemo because of the cost.  Another thing to consider is quality of life.  Aggressive Chemo is brutal, and I've known humans, including my dad, who declined a second round when their cancer returned.  

It may take a week or two for your little dude (you haven't told us his name) to get back to his normal energy levels as his blood sugars stabilize, but the 6 cases of insulinoma we've dealt with all did get it back.  It sounds like he is improving.  You should have his glucose rechecked after a couple weeks on pred.

Best wishes, and please keep us updated and ask questions.  We'd love to help any way we can.

THE DOOKS OF HAZARD

His name is Munchkin! I thought I said it but I guess not sorry :P

Yeah, I did not want to put him through stress of Chemo anyway. Costs are a factor but I don't want to put him through that much stress.

I believe the vet will be checking his sugars within 2 weeks again. He takes pred very easily. Waiting on liquid to come in I have been given quarter cuts of a pill and dissolve it in water.

Thanks for your information, I will be posting an update when I hear more :)

I had another blood glucose check for Munchkin, it went from 1.2 before pred up to 1.7... what would that mean? Could the vet have the wrong glucose meter?

When on Pred, does the BG make slow changes like that?

I have noticed he is no longer pawing at his mouth or smacking his lips.

His lymphnodes are still swollen and he has been gaining weight. 

The vet has him on antibiotic again because we noticed that helped take the swelling down. We are keeping him on Pred because it is doing something at minimum.

Blood glucose is measured in either milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) or millimols per liter (mmol/L).  In the US we use mg/dL, but other countries like UK, Canada  and most of Europe use mmol/L.  Ferret blood glucose values are similar to humans.  We go by 80-110 mg/dL as normal, which translates to 2.6-6.3 mmol/L.  
Mols is a measurement of number of molecules, where milligrams is a measure of mass.

The fact that his measurement has increased means that the pred is working, though his glucose is still low.  How long has he been on pred now?  If his blood glucose (BG) isn't within normal range in a month I would ask to have the pred dose increased.  However, we've had a couple ferrets who never got back to normal range but still thrived.  Some ferrets  seem to be able to adapt to low blood sugars.  You should discuss any dosage changes with your vet.  

I'm glad Munchkin is doing better.  Please keep us updated.  And Post a couple pics of him.  

THE DOOKS OF HAZARD

He has been on Predisone for about 2 months now. Last time we went in for a check he was at 2.2! If your explanation of the bg is right, that means its a good thing. 

Although, on Thursday, I had a bit of an emotional scare with him. I was busy all day and did not get a chance to be around him, although he had his 1ml pred in the morning, he gets his other dose at night (normally 12 hours apart) his face was beat red, and he wasn't sleeping in his hut like normal. I picked him up thinking he was just waiting on his meds. He wasn't moving, I noticed his face and how weak he felt in my arms. I was scared. I gave him some honey which he barely would take off the spoon but he did. I placed him on the floor in front of me and he couldn't even stand on his back legs. They looked like his back legs were on ice and flailing. 

We got him his meds, he ate it up (that's when he gets his soupie) and he got a bit better, I watched how he was able to take a few steps before his legs gave out and he plopped down (he's a bit chubbier since starting pred) and he's been a woddler instead of a bouncer for quite some time anyway.

Once I figured he seemed a bit better, I let him walk around like normal but then I noticed he started pawing at his mouth. I gave him another small bit of honey (no bigger than a dime when I do it) but this time had to syringe it on his lips. After that he just slept.

Friday I noticed him pawing in the afternoon, which then I gave him a bit more honey and since then, he has been back to his normal self.

I will be discussing this with the vet, and I was thinking the same thing about possible dosage change. I have a regular BG test scheduled for April 11. (they wanted to sched. monthly BG tests now instead of every 2-3 weeks)

Has this happened to anyone? Is he not getting enough protein, is it normal for his sugars to drop where he has a bad day like this? I was thinking maybe he didn't eat much although he did have food in his dish so I am unsure.

Here are some pictures of my little guy

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10380893_10153500376438362_1913453675937752708_n.jpg?oh=d27b97c9743a724cece33952a05ad62f&oe=55AD37C1

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10314476_10153369734683362_646810267145566972_n.jpg?oh=899ca46ae738619f56d68e4aa6393142&oe=558042A3&__gda__=1437516489_f8a72b25d8c6d02dcfb7a2ce4969ea97

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10710888_10153205618093362_6900327877028012924_n.jpg?oh=ae6f4dbd69838f835f39721d482b35b3&oe=55B93E35

And these ones are of him and Jazmine, who have a love-hate relationship- she pesters him but then crowds him and forces cuddles:

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10999498_10153549759993362_2409406948590113936_n.jpg?oh=18c8825494f2009aa10209c3dcd17f17&oe=55B033E4 (He is on the right, the lighter of the two)

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11001866_10153553473953362_2783212163528567364_n.jpg?oh=c5e72a71ff67d24f750e6e4bc88c0efc&oe=55B59BE7

When I see that my kids are pawing at their mouth.  That tells me their is some type of pain they are feeling.
For example ulcers or tummy problem.

I would put my kids on carafate.  That would help coat the ulcers along with antibodies. 

 You have to give the carafate about 40 mins before meds, it coats the stomach and will inhibit the absorption of the meds unless you wait the 40 mins.

What is the difference of carafate and enrofloxacin (it's an antibiotic)?

His lymph nodes have been swollen and stayed swollen for a while although it has went down a considerable amount. Would the carafate help with that?

Is it something the vet prescribes as well? I will ask about it next time I go in.

Sucralfate (carafate) acts like pepto bismol by forming a coating over ulcers and the somach.  Sometimes it's given with steroids (pred) to prevent damage to the GI tract.  Enro (brand name Baytril) can cause nausea, so the sucralfate can help prevent it.  Were you instructed to give the carafate 30-45 minutes before the enro?  And how is he taking that?  most ferrets hate enro.

THE DOOKS OF HAZARD

All his meds are orally, mixed with food. I do not have carafate or anything, but will ask about it.

He only had enro for a week a few weeks ago to try and help take the swelling down. But when all this first started he was on enro for 3 weeks straight..

but hasn't been on anything but predinosolin for 2 months now.

Sent you a pm. 

 
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